Since Vitra’s Rolf Fehlbaum first commissioned the French designers (and brothers) Ronan and Erwan Bouroullec to re-imagine the office space in 2002, they have worked on numerous projects together, developing a unique working method based on continual discussion and the freedom to question everything. Norman Kietzmann engaged the trio in a wide-ranging discussion about their process of collaboration.
–Mr. Fehlbaum, you’ve been working together with Ronan and Erwan Bouroullec for many years now. That’s almost like a marriage…
Rolf Fehlbaum: I don’t know if I would call it a marriage. We’re not monogamous (laughs). We work with other designers and Ronan and Erwan also work with other manufacturers. I would say it’s a close and respectful relationship that is borne out of mutual understanding.
–To what extent has the relationship changed since the early years?
Ronan Bouroullec: When we began working with Vitra, we were of course very naïve. That was also a great strength, because at that time, Vitra began to concentrate not only on the office but also on the home. As we developed the “Joyn” system in 2003, this naïveté was certainly helpful in bringing a different atmosphere to the office and for working a little outside the box. But naturally we aren’t quite so naïve today as we were twelve years ago.
Rolf Fehlbaum: The naïveté is an important aspect, because it’s not possible to keep it forever. Of course you can try to resist, but one day it’s simply gone. I think the biggest danger in design is falling into a routine. A “routined” designer – a person with lots of experience – knows a lot about what they do. They understand the machines, the customers, and the markets. But, like in the art world, the word “routine” does not have a positive connotation in design, because the freshness is often lost. Of course the market pays very well for routine work. By only making variations of something that’s already known and well understood, the risk is manageable. You can be sure that it works. But it’s precisely this attitude that must be avoided. Fortunately, to this day Ronan and Erwan have not settled into a routine.
–So the idea is to take on new challenges?Ronan Bouroullec: The problem for specialists is that the process of developing ideas takes place within very clearly defined parameters. That’s why we don’t want to become specialists. But naturally that’s also a question of character. The designers who work at Apple have become tremendous specialists over the past ten years and have pursued their task in a downright scientific manner. Nevertheless, or perhaps for that very reason, the result is interesting.
Erwan Bouroullec: At Apple, they have the good fortune of working with constantly changing technologies. It engenders an extreme evolution,
even though the design language has barely changed over the last ten years. The work of Alberto Meda has a similarly extreme consistency. He has focused on one thing for decades and has increasingly perfected it. I have enormous respect for that, even though we take a different direction.
–Compared to other designers who work with Vitra, do the Bouroullecs enjoy a certain free rein?
Rolf Fehlbaum: It’s true that this freedom is unique even for us. With the other designers, who we also like very much, the process is often clearer and more focused. With Ronan and Erwan it’s something completely different. Their designs cannot be easily assigned to fit neatly into a single category such as the office environment or the home. And they themselves are curious and always want to do
things differently. So we give them a little head start and see what happens. The interesting thing is that Ronan and Erwan have two very different personalities and yet, as brothers, they stick together very closely. It’s almost like with Charles and Ray Eames, who were also a couple. This kind of close relationship is especially rewarding when both are not of the same opinion. When we talk about a design, it’s not just them arguing one side and me the other. With three opinions, ever-changing coalitions emerge, which makes the discussion very exciting.
–A dispute between brothers is different than one between two business partners. After all, you can’t simply send the other one home…
Ronan Bouroullec: We definitely have more tolerance in conflicts. And we can say exactly what we’re thinking. A good project is always a hard struggle. Erwan is often more optimistic. I’m always a little more critical. We complement each other pretty well this way.
Rolf Fehlbaum: This solidarity is important because the design process
is often a chain of frustrations: “Why won’t that work? Why not the other option?” Things usually progress in small steps, and failures are part of the process. We were talking about a really nice project this morning. I was very happy when I saw the model. But then when we spoke to our production managers about it, we determined there’s a technical problem that we can’t solve for now. Yet you can’t give up and you need to consider what else can be developed out of it.
–How do you start a project? Is a briefing on the agenda from the very beginning?Ronan Bouroullec: The process is very organic. It’s an ongoing discussion where it’s hard to say what we have suggested and what came from Rolf. The collaboration is like a train that keeps moving, without making any stops in between. We are always in contact – sometimes it’s more intense and sometimes a little less intense. For the projects themselves, there’s no briefing and neither the price nor other parameters are set. That’s truly unique compared to other manufacturers. Vitra has an enormous romance with research. We try lots of things yet we frequently start again from the beginning.
Rolf Fehlbaum: The question is always whether or not there are still other options that might be more interesting. Of course, this attitude always gives you the feeling of being much too slow. On the other hand, we’re not machinery involved solely with production. I think that even as a company, this mechanical way of operating has to be avoided.
–To avoid hasty reactions?Rolf Fehlbaum: Yes, there are simply far too many products on the market. Why should you make one thing
and not something else? Even if a product sells well, isn’t it good if you aren’t satisfied with the product by default? It’s important that we are really satisfied with a project first, before we implement it. Otherwise it doesn’t work. This also includes the freedom to tell each other when something isn’t good.
Erwan Bouroullec: Rolf is satisfied with never being satisfied because he has this “Vitra project” in mind. He knows that everything can always be pushed much further. But he also knows that the search can go on almost forever. It’s difficult to explain in detail how a project develops. But this attitude acts like an incredible motor, instead of halting progress. I think that our way of working thereby changes altogether.
–Also with respect to other clients?Erwan Bouroullec: Yes, we’ve learned that a project must be attacked systematically. If it turns out that an idea is not strong enough, you have to give it up rather than getting all wound up in it. Of course there were times when I started cursing and no longer believed in a solution. But I’ve stopped doing that. Now we try out something and dissect it. Afterwards we try something else and then toss it to the wind again. So the projects need an enormous amount of time. Some clients become very unsettled if we still haven’t sent them anything after six months or a year. But in the meantime, we may have made more than 30 different designs and models that we have rejected. I think we’ve acquired an unusual sense of time in working with Vitra – and an extreme sense of patience.
Ronan (born 1971) and Erwan Bouroullec (born 1976) have been working together for about ten years now. Their collaboration is a permanent dialogue nourished by their distinct personalities and a shared notion of diligence with the intention to reach more balance and refinement.
In 1997, they presented their Disintegrated Kitchen at the Salon du Meuble in Paris and were spotted by Giulio Cappellini, who gave them their first industrial design projects, notably the Lit Clos (“Closed Bed”) and the Spring Chair. In 2000, Issey Miyake asked them to design a space for his new collection of A-Poc clothes in Paris. Then the decisive meeting with chairman of Vitra, Rolf Fehlbaum, occurred which resulted in their conception of a new kind of office system, Joyn, in 2002. This was the beginning of a special partnership which has borne fruit in numerous projects, including Algues, the Alcove Sofa, the Worknest, the Slow Chair, the Vegetal, or the L’Oiseau.
A new comprehensive monographic book was published in 2012: Works, by Phaidon Press.
Rolf Fehlbaum, the eldest son of Willi and Erika Fehlbaum, was born in 1941 in Basel. After receiving his Matura diploma, he studied social sciences at the Universities of Freiburg and later in Munich, Bern and Basel. He completed his academic studies in 1967 and worked for a short time with the Vitra Company, the shop-fitting business founded by his parents. In 1970 he moved to Munich to work as an editor and producer for the Bavaria Film Company and from 1973 to 1977 he was responsible for education and training at the Bavarian Chamber of Architects. In 1977 he took over the management of Vitra.
–Who is the author of a design: the designer, the manufacturer, or both? Ronan Bouroullec: It’s most certainly a collective intelligence. Because it’s not only the designers who have ideas. There are so many people who are involved in a design project, from the prototypes to the fabric covers to the product in the store. The interaction required with other people is downright monstrous. Of course the designer holds a central position, but to achieve perfection at a certain level takes a collective intelligence. Otherwise a good idea remains nothing more than a good idea.
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